


a conversation

by Elendraug



Category: Homestuck
Genre: Gen, close enough, does this count as a socratic dialogue
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2017-02-04
Updated: 2017-02-04
Packaged: 2018-09-22 01:12:59
Rating: Not Rated
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 1
Words: 3,237
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/9575297
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Elendraug/pseuds/Elendraug
Summary: mindful self-indulgence





	

**Author's Note:**

> [♫ spoon - nobody gets me but you](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48zJ091D518)

uu: WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN NO ONE WANTS TO LISTEN?  
TT: That’s a hell of a question.  
TT: I think it depends on the context, wouldn’t you say?  
uu: IN WHAT WAY?  
TT: What you’re asking covers a broad scope.  
TT: But you have to know your audience. That’s the key.  
TT: I know you always want the answers to everything in one go, but this is gonna take a minute to unpack.  
uu: WE CAN TALK AS LONG AS YOU LIKE.  
TT: Yeah.  
TT: So, like I was saying. Consider your audience.  
TT: Are these people who are already open to your ideas?  
TT: If so, are they going to be able to give you actual critique? Can you rely on them to provide insight, or will they just cheer you on regardless of what you do?  
TT: It’s tough to know. We all want to be praised, generally.  
TT: But what about the people you can rely on to tell you when you’re fucking up?  
uu: WELL. FOR ME, THAT’S YOU.  
TT: You know I got your back, man.  
uu: SAME.  
TT: Hell yeah.  
TT: But right, like. It’s easy enough to find shallow praise.  
TT: And that shit’s nice. It feels good, but it’s a temporary buzz.  
TT: It’s not sustaining.  
TT: For a genuine feeling of validation to sit right, to really make you feel accomplished, you have to know it’s coming from a place of sincerity.  
TT: You know, how it’s not as satisfying to have your mom hang a piece of artwork on the refrigerator.  
uu: I DON’T HAVE A MOM.  
uu: NOR DO I HAVE A REFRIGERATOR.  
TT: Okay, true.  
TT: But my point stands.  
TT: It’d be different to have an art critic review your work, right? Someone who really knows what they’re talking about.  
TT: It’s not that the other kinds of compliments are worthless. But there’s something especially reassuring to have a compliment come from someone who knows what’s up.  
uu: RIGHT.  
uu: BUT I’M TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO DON’T WANT TO LISTEN.  
TT: I’m getting there, hang on.  
uu: OKAY.  
TT: So in the same kind of way, once you can establish the various kinds of positive feedback you can receive, and qualify them based on how much somebody knows their shit, and what their relationship to, say, your art is, and to the art world at large, that goes for negative feedback, too.  
TT: If someone who doesn’t know you shows up and starts shitting on you, that hurts.  
TT: At the same time, if they have no vested interest in you as a person, and they’re just crawling out of the woodwork to be an asshole, that critique may not be a critique at all.  
TT: It’s drive-by shit-flinging.  
TT: If they don’t know you, and you don’t know them, they have no dog in this race. They don’t have any reason to be genuinely, truly interested in your development as a person.  
TT: What they’re doing isn’t about you at all.  
TT: It’s performative. It’s about them.  
TT: It’s about them making some kind of point to themselves, and to their own audience that’s watching what _they_ are doing.  
TT: It’s got nothing to do with you. You could be swapped out for any target and the pattern would hold true.  
uu: THEY EXIST TO BE HATERS.  
TT: Basically, yeah.  
TT: So you have to ask yourself.  
TT: If these are the people who aren’t listening to you, are you honestly surprised?  
uu: NO.  
uu: NOTHING ABOUT THIS SHIT SURPRISES ME.  
uu: BUT IT DOESN’T MAKE IT LESS FRUSTRATING.  
TT: Well, think of it this way.  
TT: Again, back to like, the example of an art critic.  
TT: You know Mondrian, right?  
uu: OF COURSE I DO.  
TT: So to someone who isn’t familiar with nonrepresentational art, especially once we have access to something like Photoshop, his work seems like a joke.  
TT: Holy fucking shit, some fuckin’ boxes. I could do that with something shitty like MS Paint.  
TT: Anyone could do that, right? Just use the rectangle tool and bucket fill that fucker and you’re done. Call it a day.  
TT: Hang it in the fucking Louvre.  
uu: BUT IT’S NOT THAT SIMPLE.  
TT: Of course it’s not.  
TT: Not with oil paint. Not in the 1920s.  
TT: You get up close to it, you can see the brush strokes. You can marvel at how goddamn precise you have to be to get those lines so straight.  
TT: Even if you start with Photoshop, you have to have an eye for composition.  
TT: Nobody can just click “New > New Art” and bam, make that shit hapen.  
uu: LIKE WHEN SOMEONE SAYS. WOW, WHO THE FUCK IS JACKSON POLLOCK?  
uu: LOOK AT THESE PAINT SPLATTERS. I COULD DO THAT.  
uu: OR WHATEVER THEY SAY.  
uu: I AM FORTUNATE THAT I DON’T RUN INTO PEOPLE LIKE THAT.  
uu: OR MANY PEOPLE AT ALL.  
TT: You are lucky.  
TT: Count your fuckin’ blessings.  
TT: But yeah, you’re right. The same assholes who sneer at Pollock and say yeah man, my toddler could do that.  
TT: Your toddler didn’t, did they?  
TT: You can’t even get them to pay for a logo. They shit on artists, but then they want art for free.  
TT: Guess we do have something valuable, huh?  
TT: Not so easy now that you’re designing your shitty flyer in Comic Sans, right?  
uu: YOU ARE GETTING OFF TRACK.  
TT: Yeah, sorry.  
TT: Okay.  
TT: I promise I have a point.  
uu: I’M WITH YOU.  
TT: The way the value of positive feedback is predicated on the quality of the source of the compliment, so’s the value of criticism or critique.  
TT: They’re not the same thing.  
TT: Off-the-cuff, drive-by criticism isn’t helping you.  
TT: A well-thought critique, that originated from someone who has an interest in seeing you improve and succeed, that shit’s valuable. That shit takes time.  
TT: Critique is from someone who cares about the outcome. Somebody who sees the potential and wants to see it work out. Someone who knows that things won’t get better without being challenged to improve.  
TT: And if you’re not getting critique, but rather, you’ve got some chump who’s taking empty potshots at you, you don’t owe that person anything.  
TT: Especially not if they won’t even own up to their commentary.  
TT: Like, imagine you’re gonna cook something, right?  
TT: Let’s set aside the raw meat and candy thing for a minute.  
uu: HAA! OKAY.  
TT: Perish the thought, right?  
uu: GO ON.  
TT: So you’re in like, a grocery store. Assuming that you’re in a position to be in one.  
uu: IS THAT INNUENDO?  
TT: Not quite.  
TT: You’re buying food. You’ve got a meal in mind. You know exactly what you’re gonna make, because it’s what you feel like eating, and you’re good at it.  
TT: Some dipshit comes up behind you in the store and taps on your shoulder.  
TT: You’re like, okay, what’s up?  
TT: They tell you that you shouldn’t be getting what you’re getting because they don’t like what you’re about to cook.  
TT: Maybe they don’t like olives.  
TT: So they’re like, put those olives back. I don’t like olives, so nobody else should, either.  
TT: And you’re like, okay, but I _do_ like olives, so I’m getting these olives.  
TT: You put the olives into your cart.  
TT: They get fucking pissmad and start tapping you on the shoulder again. You put back those olives, motherfucker. Don’t you know that they taste like shit?  
TT: Some people might choke on the pits.  
TT: These are pitted olives, you could point out, but it doesn’t matter. They have painted all of your olives with a broad brush.  
uu: LIKE MONDRIAN.  
TT: Maybe.  
TT: So they’re like, not only do these olives taste terrible and ruin pizza, but the pits are dangerous and someone could fuck up their teeth if they didn’t know there were pits. They are a choking hazard. No one should eat them. I will sue you.  
TT: You’re like, what? You’re like, even if I was buying olives with pits, that’s a choice I made. I would be aware of my purchase. If you don’t even like olives, why are you worried about who can eat them? You’re not eating them, and if you were buying on them, you should be reading the container to see what it is that you’re about to get.  
TT: There are rare circumstances in which you may not know what kind of olive you are getting, if somebody else made the food, but in our grocery store analogy, the purchasing decision lies with you. You gotta read the label. You know what you’re getting into here.  
TT: If you buy a jar of olives with pits, that you hate, and open it up and eat a bunch and bite the fuck into them, whose fault was that?  
TT: If your grocery store stalker thinks that olives themselves should no longer be sold, the food was never the problem.  
uu: WHAT’S AN OLIVE.  
TT: It’s something that Earth Italians like.  
uu: OH! RIGHT. AS IN THE OLIVE BRANCH ONE WOULD EXTEND. FOR SOME KIND OF PEACE OFFERING.  
TT: Yup.  
TT: So this person’s got some kind of fucking vendetta against olives and now they’re just like, hanging out in that aisle of the store, annoying the shit out of anyone who’s just trying to get in there and do some browsing.  
TT: They could write an impassioned letter to a food magazine and complain about it, but the magazine’s got no obligation to publish their olive-hating rant.  
TT: They could go home and write in a journal about how much they hate olives. They could blog about it.  
TT: But sitting in the grocery store, shitting up everyone’s attempt to just get their groceries and get through the day, that’s weird.  
uu: THIS IS ONE HELL OF AN ANALOGY.  
TT: Right, yeah, okay. So getting back to your original question.  
uu: YES.  
uu: NOBODY’S INTERESTED IN LISTENING.  
TT: Yeah. And if you’re trying to have a conversation, and they’ve already decided they’re not on board to operate in good faith, you’re wasting your breath.  
TT: They don’t want to have a conversation with you. They want to shout you down and shut down discussion.  
TT: If they allowed themselves to engage in a discussion in good faith, they might stop believing that they were justified in perpetuating their behavior.  
TT: This olive-hating motherfucker is just goddamned determined to let everyone know how much they hate olives, even when they are trying to go about their olive-purchasing business.  
TT: Even, or especially, when all the olives were donated to that shelf and are free to anyone who wants them.  
TT: And if you, personally, are the thing they hate, or the thing they’ve decided to hate, you aren’t gonna get through to them.  
TT: You’re just a stand-in for the thing they hate.  
TT: You have become a symbol to them for everything that has gone wrong in their world.  
uu: AN EFFIGY.  
TT: Or a scapegoat.  
TT: Maybe you just remind them of somebody who pissed them off at one point.  
TT: Or it hits too close to home for some other reason.  
TT: It’s not even something you did. It’s the association they’re bringing to the table.  
TT: Like that song.  
uu: WHAT SONG?  
TT: That one by Usher.  
uu: HUH?  
TT: Don’t worry about it.  
TT: So anyway, no matter what you’ve done, they’re gonna make sure you pay for whatever somebody else did, or what they claim you've done, because they can't reach the people who actually did whatever, and are projecting it onto you and taking it out on you because you happen to be easily accessible.  
TT: Nothing you say is going to change their mind once it’s made up.  
TT: It’s entrenched.  
TT: Your very existence is anathema to them. You can't be permitted to exist in their worldview. If no one else will put you in your place, they'll take it upon themselves to personally do so, for the supposed good of everyone else.  
TT: [They don’t want the truth. They want someone to be punished.](http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005264)  
TT: Anything you say is useless. They’re not interested in listening.  
uu: THAT’S THE PROBLEM!  
uu: WHAT CAN YOU DO WHEN EVERYONE REFUSES TO HEAR REASON?  
uu: WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN SHIT IS SO POISONED AGAINST YOU FROM THE START. THAT NO ONE EVEN LOOKS AT WHAT’S RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM?  
uu: HOW CAN YOU CONVINCE THEM TO RETHINK THEIR POSITION?  
TT: I wish I had an answer for you.  
TT: If they’re not interested in budging, it may not be worth the time to even try.  
TT: You owe it to yourself to really sit down and think about what you’ve done, to check to make sure you haven’t fucked up the way they say, but that’s for your own sake. That’s your own self-reflection and self-improvement, and that’s where your friends and mentors you trust to critique you from a place of caring come in.  
TT: But you don’t owe explanations to some random dude who wants to make your life miserable for the sake of making you miserable.  
TT: Anyone who’s telling you that you have no value, that you’re trash, that you deserve to die?  
TT: They’re not here to help you grow as a person.  
TT: And absolutely fucking not if they’re telling you that you can’t grow or change, ever.  
TT: Everyone can learn.  
TT: It’s about whether you choose to grow, choose to challenge yourself and improve, or if you want to just double down on being spiteful and shitty.  
uu: WHEN THIS STARTED. I WAS DRAWING ART TO HAVE FUN.  
uu: I JUST WANTED TO TELL SOME STORIES ON THE INTERNET.  
uu: HOW DID IT GET THIS BAD?  
TT: I don’t know, man.  
TT: It’s a larger trend. It’s bigger than the two of us.  
TT: You don’t read as sympathetic to many people.  
TT: And the sort of people who like you are presumed to like you for the wrong reasons.  
TT: Whatever those are, it doesn’t matter. Something about you is just plain bad.  
TT: Or so they say.  
uu: THAT’S AWFULLY UNFAIR, ISN’T IT?  
TT: I don’t think many people are concerned with what’s fair, anymore.  
TT: Giving someone space to grow and make mistakes is too much of a liability.  
TT: You gotta punish them right away, because they have to beat it into you that you’re wrong, or else you’ll never learn.  
TT: Even though they just said you’re incapable of learning.  
uu: IT MAKES NO SENSE.  
TT: I know it doesn’t.  
TT: It doesn’t matter to them.  
uu: THEN WHY ARE THEY DOING IT?  
TT: I can only speculate, but it probably makes them feel powerful.  
TT: If they convince themselves that they’re the heroes, that they’re the only ones capable of meting out punishment, and that they’re the only people who can be trusted with the task, that’ll inflate their sense of self-importance.  
TT: They’re getting that empty praise I was talking about earlier, from their audience that loves seeing them tear people down.  
TT: You gotta keep the show going, so you need fresh targets.  
TT: Everything becomes a moral argument.  
TT: Anything can be justification for an attack, even if it was when you were young and didn’t know better. Even if you were speaking into a private area of a public space.  
TT: If you weren’t born perfect, fuck you.  
uu: I WAS HATCHED.  
TT: I know.  
TT: Once you cross a line, some imaginary line that they designated in their own logic, there’s no going back.  
TT: It doesn’t even matter if you were aware of the line, it’s too late. They gotta let you have it.  
TT: And after that, no matter how much you start walking on eggshells, no matter how apologetic you are, they’re gonna keep showing up to remind you that you’re shit.  
TT: What you’ve done, whatever it is, is unforgivable, as decreed by them.  
TT: You are shit forever and please die, if you don’t mind.  
uu: UGH.  
TT: I know, right?  
TT: So, no. They’re not interested in listening.  
TT: If they listen, they open themselves up to the possibility of nuance, and that undermines their moral highground and their self-assigned crusade and purging efforts.  
TT: It doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do.  
TT: They’re gonna keep changing the goalposts so you can never win.  
TT: You will never meet their standards.  
uu: THAT’S FUCKING BULLSHIT.  
TT: Absolutely.  
uu: SO WHAT DO WE DO?  
TT: I’ve talked a lot, man. What do you think we should do?  
TT: I don’t got easy answers for that, either.  
uu: WELL. IF YOU ASK ME.  
uu: WHICH YOU DID.  
uu: I WOULD SAY...  
uu: THE BEST THING IS TO SAY FUCK THEM.  
uu: FUCK THE HATERS.  
uu: YOU MEASURE YOUR OWN PROGRESS.  
uu: IF YOU MAKE AN EFFORT TO BETTER YOURSELF. AS AN ARTIST. OR A PERSON. AND WHATEVER ELSE.  
uu: THEN THAT’S WHAT HOLDS SIGNIFICANCE.  
uu: EVEN IF NO ONE ELSE EVER SEES IT.  
uu: BUT PEOPLE WHO MATTER. PEOPLE WHO GIVE A FUCK.  
uu: THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE TO CONCERN YOURSELF WITH.  
uu: NOT ASSHOLES WHO JUST WANT TO BE ASSHOLES.  
uu: THERE IS THE KIND OF ANGER THAT MAKES YOU MOTIVATED TO KEEP GOING.  
uu: EVEN WHEN THINGS ARE AWFUL.  
uu: AND THERE IS THE KIND THAT EATS YOU FROM INSIDE AND DRAINS YOU.  
uu: LIKE A BLACK FUCKING HOLE.  
uu: THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. BUT THEY CAN ORIGINATE FROM THE SAME PLACE.  
uu: I’M NOT SURE HOW IT HAPPENS.  
TT: There’s some kind of shift, some kind of weird worldview that gets set in place so rigidly that it reinforces itself.  
TT: I dunno how to get through that kind of barrier so I’m inclined to just leave it alone and keep doing my own thing, just like you said.  
TT: It’s not worth the stress.  
TT: You gotta keep going.  
uu: THAT’S WHAT I DO.  
uu: I KEEP GOING.  
uu: NO MATTER WHO WANTS ME DEAD. NO MATTER WHO TELLS ME I AM SHITTY.  
uu: EXTERNAL SOURCES DO NOT GET TO DEFINE ME.  
uu: I WILL DEFINE ME JUST FINE ON MY OWN. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.  
TT: Hold on to that.  
TT: They don’t see it that way.  
uu: WELL.  
uu: FUCK THEM.  
uu: I DON’T OWE THEM SHIT.  
TT: Nope.  
uu: ALL THAT MATTERS TO ME. IS MAKING MY ART. AND TELLING MY STORIES.  
uu: I'LL DO IT FOR MYSELF.  
uu: AND I'LL SHOW THE THINGS I CREATE TO THE PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT THEM. AND WHO CARE ABOUT ME.  
TT: Damn right.  
TT: Hook me up anytime, my dude.  
uu: YOU KNOW I WILL.  
TT: Don’t let them get you down.  
TT: You’ve come a long way. We both have.  
TT: And we all got a long way to go.  
uu: DIRK?  
TT: Yes?  
uu: THANK YOU FOR LISTENING.  
TT: Yeah, man. You’re welcome.  
TT: I’m happy to.  
uu: I AM HERE FOR YOU ALSO. IF YOU NEED ME TO LISTEN.  
TT: Thanks, dude. I know you are.  
TT: You already have been.  
TT: <3  
uu: <3

**Author's Note:**

> keep writing


End file.
